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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 11:18 am 
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Stasis is a viable option but why use a shield that's semi legit when you lack versatility and dps?

Are you kidding? Scion have the versatility of becoming nearly immune to certain damage types depending on their shield.
And the whole point to this thread is about improving their versatility.

You are also talking as if this thread is about coming up with strategies with the existing scion tech and balance.
This thread is about CHANGING scion to make previously useless weapons useful at certain points of the game.

Instead of throwing up your hands and saying "The Titan is useless for siege because it's 175m vs 250m + mortar" you should be thinking of small ways this imbalanced situation can be averted. e.g. increase arc to 220m (not actually suggesting, just an example)
Remember AI Titans are double DPS of the AI Blast Ass. Tank, and 133% the health (not including health regain).

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 12:28 pm 
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<14:13:28> "Snake": bro
<14:13:56> "Snake": u cant just say "oh well x beats that unit so its useless" in ur arguements
<14:14:11> "Snake": its a good think for strats/weps to have counters to them
<14:14:28> "Snake": if a strategey or a wep doesnt have a direct counter to it
<14:14:33> "Snake": then its considered OP
<14:14:39> "Snake": like blink for example
<14:15:17> "iPr0n.": ?
<14:15:52> "iPr0n.": The point that I was making was Blink is the issue not nessesarily the scion units and tech
<14:15:57> "Snake": viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5048
<14:16:20> "Snake": Lancers out? Get Vir (Tech tree wasted)
Sentries out? Get Tanks (Tech tree wasted)
<14:16:34> "Snake": sure u can just list what counter what
<14:16:57> "iPr0n.": Ah I see what you mean. What im referring to is the forced gamble required.
<14:17:00> "iPr0n.": For example
<14:17:07> "Snake": but in a game- does the enemy have access to tanks? u can make sentries early on now way b4 isdf can have access to tanks to deal with isdf scouts
<14:17:23> "iPr0n.": Right I understand what you mean
<14:17:37> "Snake": making the sentries purpose tied down to the early game and not late game
<14:17:49> "iPr0n.": I agree!
<14:17:50> "Snake": u wont be making sentries when u have access to arc thats for sure
<14:18:10> "iPr0n.": The point I was making is the game's progression is flawed with scion
<14:18:16> "iPr0n.": its just like with PL-stab tanks vs scion
<14:18:32> "iPr0n.": if abs/blink comes out Plstab tanks are somewhat useless and require more advancement
<14:18:39> "Snake": yes dom and ive told u that NOW scion will have ways to deal with the PL stab tanks
<14:18:50> "Snake": u will access to stronger weps early
<14:19:19> "Snake": we are pushing blink back but we are giving scion the ability and versatility to compete without blink
<14:19:34> "Snake": that is much better than just going from 0 to 100
<14:19:37> "Snake": and gg
<14:19:43> "iPr0n.": Ok
<14:20:03> "Snake": i do agree that scion is imbalanced by design and it will always remain like that
<14:20:14> "Snake": but we arent trying to make scion as a race balanced
<14:20:43> "Snake": Blink is the main antagonist
<14:20:59> "iPr0n.": Look Snake.. I understand what you guys are doing which is why I said why isn't the focus on fixing blink.
<14:21:28> "Snake": blink cant be fixed
<14:21:33> "iPr0n.": Exactly
<14:21:37> "Snake": its broken by design
<14:21:40> "iPr0n.": which is why I say scion can't be fixed
<14:21:54> "Snake": we have tried to balance it with blink delay , ammo consumption and shit before
<14:21:54> "iPr0n.": delaying blink only makes it tougher for scion
<14:22:13> "iPr0n.": which is what everybody wants anyway
<14:22:18> "iPr0n.": so meh it is what is
<14:22:24> "iPr0n.": Scion isn't played much anyway
<14:22:28> "Snake": yeah
<14:22:41> "Snake": because u get rushed
<14:22:51> "iPr0n.": Its not about getting riushed
<14:22:57> "Snake": scion isnt played because its very linear at this point
<14:23:00> "Snake": go for blink or die
<14:23:03> "iPr0n.": instead of 8min blink GG its going to be 20min blink GG
<14:23:15> "iPr0n.": you telling me if scion get blink in the new race change people won't quit?
<14:23:25> "Snake": no
<14:23:31> "Snake": im just saying its gonna be harder for u to get it
<14:23:36> "iPr0n.": Right
<14:23:43> "Snake": and ur gonna need to invest in mid game weps and units in order to not die
<14:23:49> "iPr0n.": How can scion combat AI assault units without blink?
<14:23:52> "Snake": it will create a more fun and versatile game
<14:23:54> "Snake": man
<14:23:59> "Snake": arc
<14:24:01> "Snake": sonic
<14:24:18> "iPr0n.": Exactly my point! "and ur gonna need to invest in mid game weps and units in order to not die" what units can scion invest in?
<14:24:28> "iPr0n.": all there ai is terrible
<14:24:36> "iPr0n.": except for titans
<14:24:43> "Snake": u dont use ai
<14:24:45> "Snake": u use urself
<14:24:47> "iPr0n.": lol
<14:24:50> "Snake": put urself in a ship
<14:24:52> "iPr0n.": this is why I said its flawed
<14:24:59> "Snake": u will pilot it much better than AI
<14:25:03> "iPr0n.": how can you beat 5 thugs and AI when all you have is yourselves?
<14:25:12> "Snake": u are scion
<14:25:16> "Snake": u now have long range weps
<14:25:17> "iPr0n.": without blink
<14:25:18> "Snake": sonic and arc
<14:25:26> "Snake": sonic pushes back cannons
<14:25:36> "Snake": if im in PL tank
<14:25:39> "Snake": and u have sonic and abs
<14:25:48> "Snake": my las wont do shit to u
<14:25:51> "Snake": cuz of abs
<14:25:54> "Snake": and my pl will miss
<14:25:56> "Snake": cuz of sonic
<14:25:58> "iPr0n.": what about msl scouts?
<14:26:00> "iPr0n.": rkt tanks?
<14:26:01> "iPr0n.": scouts?
<14:26:06> "Snake": bouncing the shots back at me and inflicting aoe dmg
<14:26:09> "iPr0n.": lol
<14:26:12> "iPr0n.": get real snake
<14:26:23> "Snake": msl scouts are fragile vs quill or sonic
<14:26:41> "Snake": i mean bro we could sit here all day talking bout units and counters
<14:26:53> "Snake": the thing is there is more versatilty in the game
<14:26:55> "Snake": and more fun
<14:27:00> "Snake": instead of the BS blink
<14:27:15> "iPr0n.": Yup this is why im done
<14:27:29> "iPr0n.": Obviously you guys know how it works so change it how you like



I concede to dicussing it. Not going to waste any more time on it. If you guys feel these changes are good by all means move forward.

Out!

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 3:16 pm 
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I lke Dom as a player. He benefits the community as a Tier 1 player and isn't afraid to cmd games. Despite him being exposed for his bisexual tendencies, we need him. but goddam he is insane when it comes to balance discussions. A few years ago when he was last active he made a post about a few changes, anyone remember that? Here's a link in case some of you forgot.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4789

Im glad u posted our convo Dom (saves me from doing so).

Dom Logic:

Mtr bikes counter ass tanks. Therefore ass tanks are useless. I shouldnt be building ass tanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 3:57 pm 
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Would there be a way to add one or two other long-range units to help give the scions some late-game chops? Just an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 4:29 pm 
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Snake wrote:
I lke Dom as a player. He benefits the community as a Tier 1 player and isn't afraid to cmd games. Despite him being exposed for his bisexual tendencies, we need him. but goddam he is insane when it comes to balance discussions. A few years ago when he was last active he made a post about a few changes, anyone remember that? Here's a link in case some of you forgot.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4789

Im glad u posted our convo Dom (saves me from doing so).

Dom Logic:

Mtr bikes counter ass tanks. Therefore ass tanks are useless. I shouldnt be building ass tanks.


My last post on this thread!

I agree with my logic being flawed as i know nothing of meta or progression.

Im officially out of this discussion. Carry on gents

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 7:25 pm 
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Blaedicus wrote:
Would there be a way to add one or two other long-range units to help give the scions some late-game chops? Just an idea.


No blade. This discussion already has turned into numerous propositions about changing/adding units and weps and shit when it was orginally made with the intention of simply changing tech requirments for blink. Too many changes are not good. It just overcomplicates and prolongs things. Keep it simple with only a few changes.

Putting effort into trying to balance scions is useless as they are imbalanced from design (as has been stated before).

Idea:
- Push back blink tech
- Push forward sonic/arc

Implications:
- no longer 8 min blink gg
- longer games with scion being able to fight against isdf pressure (in the form of PL tanks)
- versatility (dont have to rely on gun spire for only defense, but can use sentries, lancers, arc/sonic scouts)

Blink is still the same weapon as before and if scion get blink it will still be gg. Nothing changes there. What changes is that game is no longer decided withing the first 10 minutes, and if ur a defensive player like dd/max then u have time to amass units b4 being halted by blink and u can have the 4 hr games that tier 3's desire so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 20th, 2016, 5:18 am 
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Location: Tier 1
Quote:
Would there be a way to add one or two other long-range units to help give the scions some late-game chops? Just an idea.


Sonic rocket m8

Quote:
Blink is still the same weapon as before and if scion get blink it will still be gg.


It'll only be gg if you allow yourself to be demoralized by it m8. With all the added time and added opportunities for scion to f**k up I think you'll find that blink gg will happen a lot less
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I propose instead of cloakets idea to giving empties shields, drop the cost of fulls to 40 when modded. they could function as a mid/late game ai unit for scion if you lock them in combat mode and give them sonic/arc and also be used just as a boost to scions early/mid game even if the only wep you can put on them at the time is stasis. I think with this change you can forget about sentry costs and a lot of other mid game buffs as this would help a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 20th, 2016, 6:15 am 
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The less changes we make the better.
First we'll try sonic and blink tech changes and work from there if it does not work out well.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 20th, 2016, 10:04 am 
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Try not to change too much about the scions. Changing tech requirements for sonic is fine, I always felt they should get some other early cannon than quill which is not even available right off the bat. But buffing sonic at the cost of dps is not a good idea due to omegakick from each shot, and it wouldn't even be sonic anymore. Sonic is meant to be a mid-close range weapon, not scion hatred cannon. You should do something like remove splash damage from the impact explosion instead so you don't f**k yourself at close ranges.

However, I'm supportive of the idea to make full base prerequisite for blink, and I agree with everyone who said that it should make for a longer and more interesting game. Giving scion sonic rocket isn't a bad idea either, I don't see how that would hurt the balance of the game in a significant way.

I do not think that scions are imbalanced by design. Because we could easily remove blink and make them more equal to hadean and isdf in other aspects. But then they wouldn't really be scion anymore.

Also, giving empties shields and other silly changes like that is a f**k no from me.


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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 20th, 2016, 9:37 pm 
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Here is a list of those who are permitted to voice their opinion:
  • AHadley
  • Edgr
  • Myself
  • Sly
  • Domakus
  • Mortarion
  • Silver
  • Snake
  • Top tiers who have adequate experience in commanding as and against Scion

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 21st, 2016, 1:00 am 
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The Brawler and Hammer have been taken out of VSR by popular demand. I don't think we will be reintroducing those units.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 21st, 2016, 9:04 am 
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Yes, we need to conserve stock settings as much as possible.

But some changes just make sense.

Some may say it's the way BZ2 was designed, why change it?
Well, why was plasma nerfed in 1.2? Plasma and pummel was the way to go in CD version...

Quote:
Some balance changes introduced in 1.2:
- Pummel nerfed, costs 3 times as much ammmo.
- Entirely new weapon introduced for Scion, Gauss Gun.
- Assault Stinger no longer a charge gun, now replaced with a new weapon that simply shoots a burst of stingers.
- Almost all Scion buildings previously had a scrap value of 3, this is now fixed.
- Almost all ISDF buildings previously had a scrap value of 3, this is now (except for the power generator) fixed.
- Gun spires scrap value reduced from 40 to 30.
- Player pilots move and run faster.
- Lancer health increased by 500, and steering sensitivity increased.
- Archers undeploy 25% faster.
- Titan health increased by 500, and now regain 9/sec.
- Guardian health increased by 250.
- AI will use Blast from 170 meters instead of 150.
- AI Gun Spires will try to shoot 10 extra meters, but only if they've already engaged a target within 200.
- Firerate for WASP increased from 1 second to 5 seconds.
- Doubled the amount of shots in Fang, but halved damage. (Resulting in same DPS but more bullets)
- ISDF ass tanks cost 80 instead of 85 scrap when upgraded.
- Bomber given Light armor class. Was None.
- Laser costs twice as much ammo.
- Sonic blast range increased from 150 to 160 meters.
- Scion sniper damage halved, projectile speed increased.
- Plasma nerfed:
Combat plasma damage to Heavy armor halved, from 100 to 50.
Combat plasma range now 189 meters instead of 200.
Combat plasma splash damage reduced.
Firerate for assault plasma increased by 1/2 seconds.
Guntowers now use their own custom variant of plasma with 200 meter range.


What about the day wreckers? It's so much easier to hit now in 1.3, maybe it should be reverted to the little red bomb it was in 1.2 (BZ1 model) for the sake of "not changing things", though I think we've all gotten used to the newer model, which was popularized in FE.

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