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 Post subject: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 1:39 pm 
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This is it, the thread that determines exactly what will be done with Scion in the next VSR.

Here is a list of those who are permitted to voice their opinion:
  • AHadley
  • Edgr
  • Myself
  • Sly
  • Domakus
  • Mortarion
  • Silver
  • Snake
  • Top tiers who have adequate experience in commanding as and against Scion

Mort suggested capping warriors allowed per team to 3, but this is a horrendous solution.
He suggested maybe adding a tech requirement or two on Warriors to make them more late game as a unit.
He also suggests nerfing (or in his words) removing Acid Cloud. I think it's okay, because it costs 70 scrap to get off maybe 1 shot. It's a Scion Bomber.

Current suggestions likely to be implemented:
  • Blink tech requirements: Stronghold, Overseer, and Dower (Most powerful weapon in game should require latest tech)
  • Sonic Cannon tech requirements: Only Stronghold (No longer requires Overseer)



Other suggestions to be considered:
  • Quill tech requirements: Only Antenna (No longer requires Dower)
  • Sentries cost 45 scrap instead of 50, unless upgraded. (That's 10 scrap less to build on green)
  • Give Scion Empties a Shield slot. (to match ISDF armor when they get dower)
  • Arc Cannon tech requirements: Stronghold, Antenna, and Dower (Instead of Overseer)
  • Stronghold cost 60 instead of 70
  • Gauss tech requirements: Kiln and Dower (No longer requires Forge)
  • Give Scion Sonic Rocket (FE weapon) to equip on lancers. (200m heavy siege weapon)


Current and potential problems:
  • Scion need mid/late game sieging capabilities for heavy armor and buildings. (Counterarguments: Scion still have blink late game)
  • Sonic becoming more commonly used there may be issues with omegakick.

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Last edited by Vearie on December 24th, 2016, 1:12 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 4:07 pm 
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Yeah my thoughts on some things have changed recently. A lot of my examples where coming from a position of getting owned, a lot of my scion games have been against better players. Having thought back to where the scion team is equal, the game does not seem too challenging tbh.

Another thing, by design blink and the scion race as a whole were designed pretty poorly. I've let go of the idea of traditionalism in trying to balance them. We can make tweaks to blink and arc and vlad ion gun for the next 2 years and scion are still going to be an unbalanced race.

Having thought about it a lot I'm on board with the idea that Stronghold should grant the player Sonic instead of blink. It does steady damage to H armour in combat mode, solving the issue of scions lack of pool hitting ability without making you super vulnerable like you would be if you plasma streamed shit. In assault mode you can push stuff around which could be could create cool tactical choices in strat, such as pushing a con away from the pool it's set to upgrade or push scavs away from loose. It does very good damage to scouts etc but It is slow and hard to aim for most people.

I think it will grant scion the ability to actually do something mid game without being lame as fuck, whether or not it will be too powerful or not powerful enough to offset the lack of blink at this stage I do not know. Further changes can always be made. Further to that, the way scion is played will of course change.
There have been alternative routes to blink in the past such as:
kiln - dower - forge - gauss sentry - stronghold - drop blink
OR kiln - antenna - lancer - forge - strong - drop blink etc
More variations and combinations can be made possible if a choice exists besides blink gg

Also with the warrior cap, I suggested the idea because each warrior doesn't improve scions chances the way each sabre or xares improves other races chances. The growth is exponential, as each warrior comes onto the field, scion's massive advantage multiplies. In smaller games such as 1v1s-2v2s-3v3s it is not so noticeable but in 5v5s a full team of warriors break the way strat is played imo. 5 Warriors outclass 5 sabres or 5 xares by a massive amount. I'm sure most people can agree with the thought process behind it but may still disagree with a cap. It's just a suggestion, happy to talk about it with anyone who has concerns or more input.

Acid cloud is pretty lame by design but I suppose the time and effort to get it to work sort of justifies it. its not cheap, it dies really quickly and you can't just put an archer in mid and let it do its thing. it's pretty gay when its off the map but as max said just build apcs man


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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 4:43 pm 
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I agree with Rush for the most part on the tech requirements.

My Suggestion:

Arc Cannon tech requirements: Stronghold, Antenna, and Dower (no Overseer)
Gauss tech requirments: Kiln and Dower (instead of Forge + Dower)

Possible Options for scion player with Gauss change:

Quick Stock Sentry: con -> kiln
Quick Gauss Sentry: con -> kiln -> dower
Quick Gauss Sentry with Statis: con -> kiln -> forge -> dower

#MakeSentriesMeta #VladWouldBeSoProudRIP

Also my arguement and example against capping warriors at 3:

4:50 PM - PLEASE 1V1 ME I BEG YOU: aight lawrd ud be pleased to know i have been converted to antiscionology
4:50 PM - DaLawrd: yes ive been made aware
4:50 PM - DaLawrd: altho ur suggestions has a bit of tsa sydrome in them
4:50 PM - DaLawrd: why would capping warriors ar 3 change anything?
4:51 PM - DaLawrd: in fact it would be disatrous at times
4:51 PM - DaLawrd: cuz what if ur warriors get sniped
4:51 PM - DaLawrd: then enemy has 3 warriors and u wouldnt be able to build anymore
4:52 PM - PLEASE 1V1 ME I BEG YOU: nah im pretty sure you could build 3 more since theyre on an enemy team
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: ok
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: say thats the case
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: then they snipe 2 more
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: at best
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: its 3 vs 5 warriors
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: not that it will ever get to that scenario
4:52 PM - DaLawrd: but its a possiblity u have created
4:52 PM - PLEASE 1V1 ME I BEG YOU: but my thought process behind it is that each warrior affects the game differently than each sabre or xares does for other races.
4:53 PM - DaLawrd: yes i understand why u thought like that
4:53 PM - PLEASE 1V1 ME I BEG YOU: like its exponetial growth not linear, it gets to a stage where 5 warriors totally outclasses 5 xares or 5 sabres
4:53 PM - DaLawrd: but im just giving an example as to why thats not the correct way to balance it

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 5:30 pm 
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instead of capping the amount of warriors you can have, the scrap cost could be progressively increased depending on how many you have?

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 9:18 pm 
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As I've said before Scion are imbalanced by design therefore they will never be balanced. They have no smooth meta progression and lack the most important aspect of a race... Versatility. With this being said in order to have scion become "Playable" without the need of "Get blink asap" these are the issues that need to be addressed.

Versatility / Proper Meta Blend
Effective AI
Effective Long range heavy damage units
Hard point Issues on units



Even with blink being the last ability scion are very shit without blink compared to their counter parts. People would still rely on empties until they can get blink warriors as they are cheap, agile and do cannon damage.

Why spend 65 scrap on a non blinking warrior when you can build empties until you get your blink especially since Warriors have no long range capabilities and are just as vulnerable to long range and brute force attacking.

But anyways lets begin!

Versatility:

Scion are forced to go empties then blink simply because everything else they have can be out teched FAST.

Lancers out? Get Vir (Tech tree wasted)
Sentries out? Get Tanks (Tech tree wasted)

EVEN IF Sentries/lancers follow the same tech tree as Quill/sonic/arc its stupid that you must downgrade back to empties. This is where the versatility problem comes in because warriors without blink vs tanks or scouts is damn near suicide due to their lack of agility, speed and hp. On the flip side you can't improve their agility, speed or hp due to the fact that once they get blink they are overpowered.

Effective AI

Scion have no effective AI except for Titans. Everything else is shit and this is due to the weapon hard-points that scion posses.

I would suggest changing the brawler to make it more effective (Track vehicle?) and buffing damage and range of sonic rocket (240m?)


Effective Long range heavy damage units:

Only long range unit scion has is Archer.

Everything else is less than 200 and it requires a lot of support and archers to cause any relative damage and thats IF they aren't suicide killed.

Every other race can wipe the map from 250+(Some 300+) away with a variety of units while also being able to effectively defend themselves

One could argue blink covers up this issue however the bottleneck comes into play when you consider the fact that only thugs can blink meaning the more AI = more thugs required and it gets the point where blinking is no longer effective.

Hard point Issues on units:

Really messes up the meta especially since most of scion guns are useless for overall use so I won't touch on this subject unless asked.

Anyways, now that i've said this I will go over some changes i've discussed before concerning scion and it's tech tree:

Tech Tree Weapons

Quill/stasis = Dower/Kiln
stinger/multi = Kiln/Antenna
Guass/deflection = Kiln/Antenna/Dower
Sonic/Absorbtion = Forge/Dower/Antenna
Arc = Forge / Dower / Overseer
Blink = Forge / Dower / Overseer/ Stronghold


Stronghold cost 60 scrap
Antenna cost 50 scrap
Overseer cost 100 scrap

Sonic velocity and rate of fire increase with damage reduction.
Making Titans quicker and HP between Walkers and assault tanks or equal.
Making Maulers faster/more agile with same scrap drop.
Making Brawler more effective (Track vehicle) also (Speed, agility and hp)
Sonic Rocket velocity increase and damage increase (Give scion a long range assault unit)

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Last edited by Domakus on September 19th, 2016, 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 11:05 pm 
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Yeah more on what Dom said, the Brawler actually really filled a gap in that it had the only long range wep available to scion (assault sonic rocket)

I said to cloaket the other day that from the start wasp should be fucked off and replaced with a rocket bomb type wep (sonic rocket good candidate) but instead of getting rid of wasp (would break dd's heart) I suggest we add sonic rocket back in the game and then the lancer could fill a more practical role instead of standing behind a hill holding left mouse button.


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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 18th, 2016, 11:07 pm 
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Glad you posted Dom, despite the initial closed mindedness indicated.

I don't see it that Scion are imbalanced by design. Rather looks like the designer(s) weren't aware of what they were doing.
Let's face it, game devs are 99.9% of the time awful at games skill wise, especially their own. They ALWAYS lack judgement to understand how well players can exploit their devices.

I believe Sonic/Gauss warriors are a formidable matchup to Pulse/Lase tanks.
For one, the Sonic Blast magnet effect will knock half or more of the Pulse shots and Mortars out of the way (or back toward the tank better yet, splash damaging or even directly hitting it).

For Chain/Laser VS Sonic empties scenarios, let's look at the math.
Yes, Sonic is slow, but so is Hadean Fireball, and if you learn to aim with that you can inflict serious damage at great distance hardly putting yourself in harms way.

Sonic will kill an ISDF scout in 4 shots, 3 if it's damaged slightly.
Chaingun is 135m range, Sonic is 160.

Apart from maybe Sonic's speed, the first argument is going to be, what about the Scion Scout's health? It's so low, laser will kill it in 3 shots.

Now let's look it real...

This is true if the scout has no shield.
It takes 13 laser shots (both hitting) to destroy a Scion scout with absorbtion. That's more than 4 times as many shots it takes to kill ISDF scouts.
Chaingun damage is halved by deflection.
And Stasis usually balances Scion out to Light armor class from what I've seen in odfs.

Scion will be able to push ISDF into using certain weapons if they want to keep up.

And so thinking more about this, I've added a new suggestion, add a Shield slot (but not a Special) to Scion empties.

Quote:
Scion are forced to go empties then blink simply because everything else they have can be out teched FAST.

These are the very things we propose to change, Scion's slow tech for non-blink.

Strong hold costs 60 scrap.
This is an interesting suggestion to think about.


Quote:
This is where the versatility problem comes in because warriors without blink vs tanks or scouts is damn near suicide due to their lack of agility, speed and hp.

Warriors actually go faster than Sabres, but their strafe is about 13% slower.
By speed, you are probably thinking of steering?
Sabres barely turn faster while moving, and in VSR, the Warrior steering sensitivity matches all the other tanks. (thanks to mort)

Stock Warrior wrote:
velocForward = 30.0
velocReverse = 18.0
velocStrafe = 14.0
accelThrust = 24.0 //acceleration
accelDragStop = 5.8 //how fast it stops once hands are off controls
accelJump = 15.0

omegaSpin = 6.0 //spinning in place speed
omegaTurn = 2.0 //turning while moving speed
alphaSteer = 4.5 //how fast it responds to steering (7.0 in VSR)


Stock Sabre wrote:
velocForward = 28.5
velocReverse = 20.0
velocStrafe = 16.0
accelThrust = 24.0 //acceleration
accelDragStop = 6.0 //how fast it stops once hands are off controls
accelJump = 15.0

omegaSpin = 6.0 //spinning in place speed
omegaTurn = 2.3 //turning while moving speed
alphaSteer = 7.0 //how fast it responds to steering


Now talking about HP...
Warriors and Sabres both have the exact same amount of health, 3500.
You're thinking of armor.
Tanks have Light armor class, Warriors have None.
Chaingun takes the exact same amount of time to kill an Sabre as it does a shieldless Warrior, because it does 16 damage to both (L)ight and (N)one.
Laser on the other hand does a lot more damage to N than L. (250 vs 150).

If you don't put a shield on a Warrior, it's either going to break even, or be weaker than a Sabre.
But we do put shields on Warriors, and they effect weapon damage to a sometimes MASSIVE extent. (e.g. Ion Gun being almost 0 damage to Abso)

Laser becomes useless against Abso, forcing ISDF to use Chain.
Chain is half damage against deflection, making it seem like a good idea to switch to laser, which obliterates deflection.
In the case you just want your Warrior to match the Sabre however, you can just give them Stasis, which in the majority of cases is basically L armor. (Often times stronger, some times weaker)

Stasis Warriors can actually take more blast shots than a Sabre.
Deflection Warriors get raped by blast.
Absorbtion Warriors laugh at blast.
When in doubt, use Stasis, it is usually better than L armor anyway.

I don't think it would take a lot of tweaking to make non-blink Warriors match the other tanks.


Now let's talk about siege. Yes, this is a bit of a weak point for Scion.
Titans are great, but that's about all they've got.

I do a lot of scenarios as Hadean and ISDF where 2 to 4 thugs and myself will protect an assault tank with a couple trucks to siege the enemy base.

I've never even tried this with Scion, they may have more sieging power than given credit for, it's just not been used effectively.

Once again, let's look at the math.

Titans have 33% more health than Assault Tanks, 4500 vs 6000, and twice the ammo. These things are tough.
Sure, Ass. Tanks outrange them, but Titans have higher damage output and more health, and can output their damage for a long period of time without draining their ammo to nothing.
Despite things I've heard, the facts are that Titans posess the exact same speed as Ass. Tanks.

Cannons only Damage-Per-Second, Unmodified Titan vs Blast Ass. Tank:
N=500, N=450
L=500, L=320
H=375, H=200
S=375, S=320
D=500, D=450
A=250, A=200
Yes, the Titan does more, esp on H armor, but the Assault Blast outranges Arc 250 to 175 meters. BUT, the Titan also doesn't run out of ammo in 10 shots.

Healers are recommended, but not always necessary for Titans because of this. (Or less are required.)

My main point here, try using Titans similarly to Assault Tanks.
It may not work out because you will need to get in a lot closer, but it's worth a shot, I've never seen it tried.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 4:58 am 
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I apologize for my statement and thus removed it.

Quote:
I don't see it that Scion are imbalanced by design. Rather looks like the designer(s) weren't aware of what they were doing.
Let's face it, game devs are 99.9% of the time awful at games skill wise, especially their own. They ALWAYS lack judgement to understand how well players can exploit their devices.


Based on your scenarios it only reinforces my points being made. But rather than just say it i will explain to you why blink is a MUST for scion since they lack anything else. But anyways lets proceed.

Quote:
I believe Sonic/Gauss warriors are a formidable matchup to Pulse/Lase tanks.
For one, the Sonic Blast magnet effect will knock half or more of the Pulse shots and Mortars out of the way (or back toward the tank better yet, splash damaging or even directly hitting it).


You keep looking at it from a RAW comparison and not from a meta progression aspect. To combat sonic warriors all you need is Arm after PL-stab fails. Arm provides mcurt and avengers along with rkt tanks. The same strategy that wrecks Hadeon and daedlion except for the fact that scion lack Vir or any other special designed to counter long range attacks. EXCEPT for blink. As I said before:

Quote:
Scion are forced to go empties then blink simply because everything else they have can be out teched FAST.


Quote:
For Chain/Laser VS Sonic empties scenarios, let's look at the math.
Yes, Sonic is slow, but so is Hadean Fireball, and if you learn to aim with that you can inflict serious damage at great distance hardly putting yourself in harms way.

Sonic will kill an ISDF scout in 4 shots, 3 if it's damaged slightly.
Chaingun is 135m range, Sonic is 160.


Sonic will be a challenge but from my experience a rate of fire and velocity boost at the cost of less damage would be nice. More testing would be needed although comparing an FS is funny.

Quote:
Apart from maybe Sonic's speed, the first argument is going to be, what about the Scion Scout's health? It's so low, laser will kill it in 3 shots.

Now let's look it real...

This is true if the scout has no shield.
It takes 13 laser shots (both hitting) to destroy a Scion scout with absorbtion. That's more than 4 times as many shots it takes to kill ISDF scouts.
Chaingun damage is halved by deflection.
And Stasis usually balances Scion out to Light armor class from what I've seen in odfs.

Scion will be able to push ISDF into using certain weapons if they want to keep up.

And so thinking more about this, I've added a new suggestion, add a Shield slot (but not a Special) to Scion empties.


Once again you are providing RAW on paper data and not actual game progression. Completely neglecting....

LASER Full scouts with mcurt.
Rkt tanks that are invincible from Mcurt
Msl scouts with mcurt


2 Laser fulls will completely wreck 4 scion scouts especially if they have m-curt and skill.

This is why I suggested the velocity increase/ rate of fire increase.

I would have suggested ARC but ARC too early I believe is a big mistake.

If we are doing comparison please compare both levels of meta



Quote:
Warriors actually go faster than Sabres, but their strafe is about 13% slower.
By speed, you are probably thinking of steering?
Sabres barely turn faster while moving, and in VSR, the Warrior steering sensitivity matches all the other tanks. (thanks to mort)


Now talking about HP...
Warriors and Sabres both have the exact same amount of health, 3500.
You're thinking of armor.
Tanks have Light armor class, Warriors have None.
Chaingun takes the exact same amount of time to kill an Sabre as it does a shieldless Warrior, because it does 16 damage to both (L)ight and (N)one.
Laser on the other hand does a lot more damage to N than L. (250 vs 150).

If you don't put a shield on a Warrior, it's either going to break even, or be weaker than a Sabre.
But we do put shields on Warriors, and they effect weapon damage to a sometimes MASSIVE extent. (e.g. Ion Gun being almost 0 damage to Abso)

Laser becomes useless against Abso, forcing ISDF to use Chain.
Chain is half damage against deflection, making it seem like a good idea to switch to laser, which obliterates deflection.
In the case you just want your Warrior to match the Sabre however, you can just give them Stasis, which in the majority of cases is basically L armor. (Often times stronger, some times weaker)

Stasis Warriors can actually take more blast shots than a Sabre.
Deflection Warriors get raped by blast.
Absorbtion Warriors laugh at blast.
When in doubt, use Stasis, it is usually better than L armor anyway.

I don't think it would take a lot of tweaking to make non-blink Warriors match the other tanks.


Now let's talk about siege. Yes, this is a bit of a weak point for Scion.
Titans are great, but that's about all they've got.

I do a lot of scenarios as Hadean and ISDF where 2 to 4 thugs and myself will protect an assault tank with a couple trucks to siege the enemy base.

I've never even tried this with Scion, they may have more sieging power than given credit for, it's just not been used effectively.

Once again, let's look at the math.

Titans have 33% more health than Assault Tanks, 4500 vs 6000, and twice the ammo. These things are tough.
Sure, Ass. Tanks outrange them, but Titans have higher damage output and more health, and can output their damage for a long period of time without draining their ammo to nothing.
Despite things I've heard, the facts are that Titans posess the exact same speed as Ass. Tanks.

Cannons only Damage-Per-Second, Unmodified Titan vs Blast Ass. Tank:
N=500, N=450
L=500, L=320
H=375, H=200
S=375, S=320
D=500, D=450
A=250, A=200
Yes, the Titan does more, esp on H armor, but the Assault Blast out ranges Arc 250 to 175 meters. BUT, the Titan also doesn't run out of ammo in 10 shots.

Healers are recommended, but not always necessary for Titans because of this. (Or less are required.)

My main point here, try using Titans similarly to Assault Tanks.
It may not work out because you will need to get in a lot closer, but it's worth a shot, I've never seen it tried.




How dare you insult my siege / base breaking abilities Vearie I had no idea I was doing it wrong all this time and would surely love for you to teach me how to siege on all the races.

You're comparing Sabres and Warriors strictly on hp #s. Once again completely neglecting versatility and raw damage output.

Also as for that blast Assault tank I love how you completely leave out Dual mortar which is something used very common in strats.

I enjoy the ideas as we are trying to come up with solutions to scion's progression chart however I accepted it long ago that they are doomed especially since their progression chart hits many dead ends. It gets to the point where empties to Blink is a must as too many units used will be their downfall near the end.

As for titan usage I use titans in strats for pool securing but typically a fortified base is suicide for a titan unless you use 100 of them. You are better off using Archers with Titans guarding them until the base or area is weak enough to steam roll with titans.


This is just me ranting about how imbalanced Scion are.

Also what will prevent people from quitting once blink is out?
Is blink not the real issue here?

You guys are sitting here talking about how Blink too early is the problem but what is preventing you from quitting once blink is out later in the game?

To me this seems like a cheap attempt to extend the 100% scion base camp from 8mins (We lost) to 15-20min (We lost). Why play scion if people will quit once blink is out instead of fighting scion? I'm sure any scion commander (Not many lol) would be upset to get blink after the on going assault only for the enemy to demo their rec.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 8:44 am 
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Quote:
You're comparing Sabres and Warriors strictly on hp #s. Once again completely neglecting versatility and raw damage output.

Not true, I was just correcting your statement about their lack of speed, agility, and HP. This is comparing them on a multitude of fields. I didn't even mention their hardpoints.

Quote:
2 Laser fulls will completely wreck 4 scion scouts especially if they have m-curt and skill.

Absorbtion dramatically removes laser's ability to output any damage.
Those full scouts will ultimately become weak single rocket hardpoint rocket tanks.

Quote:
How dare you insult my siege / base breaking abilities Vearie I had no idea I was doing it wrong all this time and would surely love for you to teach me how to siege on all the races.

Like I said, I've never seen a group of thugs trying to defend either a human piloted Titan or an AI Titan doing a base assault like we do with ISDF and Hadean, probably because its lack of range. It has enough fire power and bulk to make up for the lack of range IMO, but this would have to be tested in a 4v4 or 5v5 scenario.

Quote:
Also as for that blast Assault tank I love how you completely leave out Dual mortar which is something used very common in strats.

If it's human piloted then yes. And this is my favorite way to end games, don't think it's not on my mind against Scion. Dual mortar has massive damage output, though mortar isn't too hard to counter with mobile m-curtain. (Sonic Wave)

Quote:
Once again you are providing RAW on paper data and not actual game progression. Completely neglecting....

I've made comparisons using proposed parallel tech lines with data to back it up, that's not just "raw paper data".

Quote:
Rkt tanks that are invincible from Mcurt
Msl scouts with mcurt

Gauss + Sonic = invincible from shadower alone, and has no problem going through M-Curtain.
I know M-Curtain is extremely effective against Hadean, but I don't think it will be to the same extent VS Scion.


Quote:
although comparing an FS is funny.

In comparaing the raw DPS and projectile speed they are actually very similar, though I was just using an example of a powerful slow traveling projectile being used as a primary tank weapon.

Quote:
Why play scion if people will quit once blink is out instead of fighting scion? I'm sure any scion commander (Not many lol) would be upset to get blink after the on going assault only for the enemy to demo their rec.

This already happens half the games with Scion vs ISDF. That is what we are trying to reduce or even fix.
Getting blink later gives ISDF a fighting chance compared to chain scouts or pulse laser sabre turrets vs blink. ISDF will be in positions Mort always previously made frequent comparisons of. (Rocket tanks, Sabres, loads of defense, Warriors don't have a lot of time to blink out, etc...)


A note on your idea to increase speed, firerate, and reduce damage on sonic isn't off the table, but I'd first like to see how sonic in its current state plays out.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 9:25 am 
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Vearie wrote:
Quote:
You're comparing Sabres and Warriors strictly on hp #s. Once again completely neglecting versatility and raw damage output.

Not true, I was just correcting your statement about their lack of speed, agility, and HP. This is comparing them on a multitude of fields. I didn't even mention their hardpoints.

Quote:
2 Laser fulls will completely wreck 4 scion scouts especially if they have m-curt and skill.

Absorbtion dramatically removes laser's ability to output any damage.
Those full scouts will ultimately become weak single rocket hardpoint rocket tanks.

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How dare you insult my siege / base breaking abilities Vearie I had no idea I was doing it wrong all this time and would surely love for you to teach me how to siege on all the races.

Like I said, I've never seen a group of thugs trying to defend either a human piloted Titan or an AI Titan doing a base assault like we do with ISDF and Hadean, probably because its lack of range. It has enough fire power and bulk to make up for the lack of range IMO, but this would have to be tested in a 4v4 or 5v5 scenario.

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Also as for that blast Assault tank I love how you completely leave out Dual mortar which is something used very common in strats.

If it's human piloted then yes. And this is my favorite way to end games, don't think it's not on my mind against Scion. Dual mortar has massive damage output, though mortar isn't too hard to counter with mobile m-curtain. (Sonic Wave)

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Once again you are providing RAW on paper data and not actual game progression. Completely neglecting....

I've made comparisons using proposed parallel tech lines with data to back it up, that's not just "raw paper data".

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Rkt tanks that are invincible from Mcurt
Msl scouts with mcurt

Gauss + Sonic = invincible from shadower alone, and has no problem going through M-Curtain.
I know M-Curtain is extremely effective against Hadean, but I don't think it will be to the same extent VS Scion.


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although comparing an FS is funny.

In comparaing the raw DPS and projectile speed they are actually very similar, though I was just using an example of a powerful slow traveling projectile being used as a primary tank weapon.

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Why play scion if people will quit once blink is out instead of fighting scion? I'm sure any scion commander (Not many lol) would be upset to get blink after the on going assault only for the enemy to demo their rec.

This already happens half the games with Scion vs ISDF. That is what we are trying to reduce or even fix.
Getting blink later gives ISDF a fighting chance compared to chain scouts or pulse laser sabre turrets vs blink. ISDF will be in positions Mort always previously made frequent comparisons of. (Rocket tanks, Sabres, loads of defense, Warriors don't have a lot of time to blink out, etc...)


A note on your idea to increase speed, firerate, and reduce damage on sonic isn't off the table, but I'd first like to see how sonic in its current state plays out.



Sonic wave is not practical in an ACTUAL Strat. Especially since you not only remove a thug you also leave your self extremely vulnerable to attack or being flanked which is insta death as the shads are coming to kill you as soon as that wave drops :) This is due to you have no means to fight and counter unlike with mcurt you can drop some then proceed to fight.

In terms of your statement about ISDF having a "fighting" chance against Scion. BLINK is the only effective means to bring balance to Scion. We can play many meta strats where blink is the last thing you drop and I guarantee you would be out teched UNTIL Blink is available. As I've said before delaying blink only gives more time for races to "Crush" scion before "Blink GG" this is due to scion's imbalance.

While these ideas are "Good" ideas on the drawing board and great for using against AI units. The actual player is much more challenging. As a matter of fact I use to use sonic wave and I realized it is terrible as shads stack and you are completely vulnerable from behind

Here another Example based on that video:

Your warrior lacks blink Correct?

Why the hell would 2 sabres sit back shooting pulse at you when they could both rush in and mortar you forcing you to drop wave and ultimately be killed by the shads? The Rkt tank is protected from everything but guass so why would a smart enemy sit back and allow you to do that? Once the wave is gone the rkt tank will do his job VERY Well as you lack blink to escape, your hp is garbage, and you have no effective assault units to combat their assault units.

This is the meta / tech progression i am referring to.

Blink was designed to cover up scion's huge flaws

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 10:08 am 
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When I came back to read your entire post and reply the whole thing was editted to something different, let's keep posts whole so we don't get confused here.

Quote:
Why the hell would 2 sabres sit back shooting pulse at you when they could both rush in and mortar you forcing you to drop wave and ultimately be killed by the shads? The Rkt tank is protected from everything but guass so why would a smart enemy sit back and allow you to do that? Once the wave is gone the rkt tank will do his job VERY Well as you lack blink to escape, your hp is garbage, and you have no effective assault units to combat their assault units.

The Sabres in that video are irrelevant, they happened to be there from another previous test, just forgot to delete them.
In any case, you're saying sonic wave is useless because it can't be used to take on a 3v1 scenario and win...
This shad stacking being an issue is somewhat true, I've seen it happen when Warriors don't know when to get out in time. One solution is to decrease the image siginature for scion units, making lock ons take longer. Another is to further reduce damage shadower does to deflection.

Now this goofy ass myth that Warriors have less HP needs to be laid to rest. It's just factually wrong.
Warriors have GREATER health and armor than Sabres in almost every single case with Stasis. I don't know where "garbage hp" comes from.
Only Xares outclass them in this field.
A shieldless Warrior is equal in some cases but lesser in most cases to a Sabre, but who is going to decide not to add a shield to Scion? Stasis only requires a Dower, maybe it should only require a kiln so scion can match ISDF HP almost right off the bat?

I think Titans are more powerful than given credit for.
Rockets dead in 4 shots. Huge health and armor.
Huge ammo capacity, and ammo that regains.
Double the DPS of an AI Blast Ass. Tank.
Also, Titans naturally regain health at a rate higher than any other unit in the game.
IMO they're potentially just as formidable as ISDF and Hadean Ass. Tanks for base assault if well defended.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion politics
PostPosted: September 19th, 2016, 10:30 am 
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Vearie wrote:
When I came back to read your entire post and reply the whole thing was editted to something different, let's keep posts whole so we don't get confused here.

Quote:
Why the hell would 2 sabres sit back shooting pulse at you when they could both rush in and mortar you forcing you to drop wave and ultimately be killed by the shads? The Rkt tank is protected from everything but guass so why would a smart enemy sit back and allow you to do that? Once the wave is gone the rkt tank will do his job VERY Well as you lack blink to escape, your hp is garbage, and you have no effective assault units to combat their assault units.

The Sabres in that video are irrelevant, they happened to be there from another previous test, just forgot to delete them.
In any case, you're saying sonic wave is useless because it can't be used to take on a 3v1 scenario and win...
This shad stacking being an issue is somewhat true, I've seen it happen when Warriors don't know when to get out in time. One solution is to decrease the image siginature for scion units, making lock ons take longer. Another is to further reduce damage shadower does to deflection.

Now this goofy ass myth that Warriors have less HP needs to be laid to rest. It's just factually wrong.
Warriors have GREATER health and armor than Sabres in almost every single case with Stasis. I don't know where "garbage hp" comes from.
Only Xares outclass them in this field.
A shieldless Warrior is equal in some cases but lesser in most cases to a Sabre, but who is going to decide not to add a shield to Scion? Stasis only requires a Dower, maybe it should only require a kiln so scion can match ISDF HP almost right off the bat?

I think Titans are more powerful than given credit for.
Rockets dead in 4 shots. Huge health and armor.
Huge ammo capacity, and ammo that regains.
Double the DPS of an AI Blast Ass. Tank.
Also, Titans naturally regain health at a rate higher than any other unit in the game.
IMO they're potentially just as formidable as ISDF and Hadean Ass. Tanks for base assault if well defended.



You are completely detached from gameplay, economy and strategy if you believe titans are equal to assault tanks and Hedoux.

You know why Titans are so hard to man and assault with?

Because to get close requires your support to get close. This means Service trucks, guardians, thugs and other AI all have to come within less than 200m to be effective. From an economic and strategy stand point that is suicide if you are going against enemy thugs and assault units. Especially if there are Hornet Rkt tanks, mortar assault tanks, walkers, gts, msl scouts, and avengers. This is why I stated you need massive amounts of titans Or just archers however it gets to the point where all you can use is archers which is bad.

Also I forgot about the famous.. Mtr bike spam :)


Stasis is a viable option but why use a shield that's semi legit when you lack versatility and dps?

This is another bottleneck that Blink filled the gap in.

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