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 Post subject: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 11th, 2016, 1:33 pm 
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TS3 Chat wrote:
<13:54:43> "Rush Limbaugh": Anything you can think of that should be changed in VSR?
<13:55:33> "Snake": not that i can think of off the top of my head
<13:56:48> "Snake": change the tech requirement for blink
<13:56:59> "Rush Limbaugh": to what
<13:57:13> "Snake": make it so u need overseer antenna and stronghold
<13:57:27> "Snake": bascially just swap it with arc cannon
<13:57:42> "Snake": getting stronghold gets u arc earlier
<13:57:42> "Rush Limbaugh": perhaps make sonic and guass available sooner?
<13:58:20> "Rush Limbaugh": a change like this would need to be run by the community a bit first ofcourse
<13:58:55> "Snake": of course


Should blink tech requirements be upped and perhaps others lowered?

My personal idea would be:

Red items are old tech requirements removed.
Green items are new tech requirements added.
White are current tech requirements maintained.

Quill: Dower, Antenna (Upg Ships: Kiln -> Antenna -> Quill)
Sonic Cannon: Overseer, Dower, Antenna (Upg Ships: Kiln -> Antenna & Dower -> Sonic)
Gauss: Kiln, Forge, Dower (Upg Ships: Kiln -> Dower -> Gauss)
Blink: Stronghold, Overseer (Drop or Upg: Kiln & Antenna -> Forge -> Overseer -> Blink)
Arc Cannon: Overseer, Antenna, Dower, Stronghold (Drop or Upg: Kiln & Dower & Antenna -> Forge -> Stronghold)
EMP Lockdown: Antenna


Tier 1s discussion only please

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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 12th, 2016, 5:28 am 
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it seems the harshest opposition to scion comes from people who have never cmded them regularly.

Forge + Strong gives you blink but if that's all you have you still have a tough time doing anything.

Without keeping your full (pretty rare) you have to build a unit to equip it yeah, sentry and warrior builds can be cancelled by killing a lung (really easy to do) so the safest way to get a blink unit, if your base is being assaulted, is to build a full scout because once its modded thats it, you keep blink even if you lose your forge and strong unlike every other unit.

A plasma/blink/absorption scout if i remember correctly has a weaker strafe than an empty so it becomes worse at counter hovering, it loses flares so you lose a fair bit of power against rats and your ammo goes down the drain when you're blinking so it takes even longer to kill pools and shit because you have to blink to avoid shads/chain scouts and shit which come out around the same stage of the game. So thats the scout, still lacking big time. You can't get a whole lot done with one besides blink around and be a pest

plasma/ion/blink/abso warrior - similar to the scout except you can't hover at all, you cost 65, shads lock on pretty quick but you get ion (wow so gr8) and more hp and ammo. The ammo comes in handy when hitting stuff but plasma stream is still pretty thirsty so your base hitting abilities are still fairly limited. still pretty hard to chase shit down as your weps are slow and have low range. you also have 0 ability to kill assault tanks and rocket tanks. ONE THING TO CONSIDER: if you're lucky you can blink in and steal a chain/a burst. if you can do this you save yourself a whole lot of hardship and buy heaps of time

Ion/blink/abso sentry - a truely autistic choice of vehicle. ion is pretty decent vs scouts but your ability to kill shit with heavy armour (scavs pools base etc) is really limited, you got no chance vs assault units. ONE THING TO CONSIDER: if you're lucky you can blink in and steal a chain/a burst. if you can do this you save yourself a whole lot of hardship and buy heaps of time

yes you have got blink but this is where I have lost the most. if you didn't manage your scrap really well, get a snipe or get some decisive plasma stream base hits in and you're just slightly behind on tech there's really not a whole lot blink can do for you. your base is being chained/mortared down, your rec may be heavily damaged from an earlier rush or just accumulated damage and healers at this stage are too hard to get and to keep.

FORGE/STRONG/DOWER

ok now you have gauss cool, the scout stays the same and by this stage is usually obsolete (if you still have it)

the warrior (plasma gauss blink abso) becomes heaps better, you can chase down and kill scouts/tanks/missile scouts and still have a decent amount of hp and ammo left if you're not dog shit. You can defend your base from assault units with the help of terrain using assault gauss as by this time the enemy will usually have an ass tank/rocket tank or 2 on the field and you gotta kill them quick or you're fucked. base hitting becomes a little better depending on how much ammo you waste gaussing down enemy scouts/tanks

The sentry (gauss blink abso) becomes a lot better at dogfighting but still has trouble with heavy units, combat and assault gauss use a lot of ammo so you can't really morph and kill pools and shit with it practically.

FORGE/STRONG/DOWER/ANTENNA

at this stage all you want is a warrior, the scout becomes decent and the sentry stays the same. by now the enemy's base is close to full tech and the field is likely flooded with assault units. you gotta do something quick or you're going to be one pooled fighting vs 4+ assault units and tanks.

with a quill/gauss/blink/whatever warrior your base hitting ability gets heaps better, you can blink in, kill a building or atleast heavily damage it and blink to safety which is usually mid/just short of your base depending on the map. your dogfighting ability goes up, you can beat pulse las tanks, full scouts and msl scouts pretty comfortably. finally you can hit pools quickly for high ammo consumption (fang) or at a steady rate with lower ammo consumption (quill). you no longer have to be morphed and take multiple trips to kill a pool.
ALSO
quill/emp/blink/whatever warrior can destroy convoys of assault units (if unattended only), freeze builds, stop gts from shooting etc. you also have heaps more ammo (not using gauss so much) heaps more mobility but lose a fair bit of dogfighting ability as gauss helps A LOT and you've got to be in close range (rip vs pummel/burst/mdm)

this is where most players ragequit if they didn't quit as soon as you got a blink scout or whatever. you have overcome your huge lack of base hitting/pool hitting ability and can now do both really well. problem is by this stage (especially in a 1v1) your isdf opponent has massed assault units rats etc at your 2nd/mid and is likely defending them in a tank. if their base is defended well and you're not accomplishing a whole lot by hitting it then the isdf enemy is no longer distracted and they can steamroll your base which is likely only defended by maybe a spire and a couple guardians.
you now have to solely blink in and emp/fang assault units before they completely overrun you. in a 1v1 you're it, this warrior is all you have. the only ai worth mentioning is the titan (will get to that soon) and the gauss/emp guardian. if you don't have 3 pools, overseer and a titan right now or within the next few minutes then it doesn't matter if you can emp/fang the isdf enemies assault units. there's just too many to kill on your own and the huge mass of rats/ ass tanks/rocket tanks and the sabre sitting in the middle will kill you if you fuck up a blink and then it's gg.

also all this time you have been trying to get rid of these units the isdf enemy has been raping your pools, keeping you to 2 at best. this is where you lose.
an arc warrior or a sonic emp warrior or an acid cloud archer or a few maulers or a bunch of spires can do fuck all at this stage. isdf have an answer for all of these. unless you can get some titans out with loose from an earlier assault you emp/fanged down then the isdf enemy will slowly move into a position to one pool you while you build nothing but pods/healers/scavs.

in a 1v1, scion is actually pretty hard to play. I do agree that at one point in a 4v4 or 5v5 the amount of warriors you can get overcomes all the advantages an isdf team has and you can just shit all over everything. changing the scion tech tree will basically kill scion in anything but big team games which become even harder to survive early game due to the sheer amount of scouts hovering down your base/las raping you in the dickhole.

For a more balanced scion v isdf game, 1v1 and 2v2s are a better example than 5v5s. if it's possible to cap the amount of warriors you can have then capping them to 2-3 could help those late games. I'm pretty opposed to changing the scion tech tree though, i don't see any real reason to. A lot of losses vs scion come down to not playing correctly vs them.
in one weekend i won 1v1 vs tom as scion but lost to dd, the difference is that dd got me in that final stage where the usefulness of emp/fang couldn't overcome the advantages isdf had and I couldn't get titans out to even it out ai wise and overcome everything else with blink.

tldr: yes in 5v5 scion are op af because there's 5 warriors fucking all your shit up. in 1v1s there's 1 blink unit and 1 ai unit that give you trouble, the titan. everything else can be overcome with isdf ai and a single tank. in 2v2 there's two warrios but if you snipe one and use the blast warrior (outrange titans and spires) and sabre (mdm down spires, titans, archers, trucks etc) combo then it's only a matter of time until isdf win vs the scion team. 3v3-5v5 is where the usefulness of blink outweighs how the shittness of every other thing scions have except titans, in games smaller than this though isdf have heaps of opportunities

until sly or dom state their opinion it's just players who have never cmded scion regularly or at a high level screaming op without knowing what it's like to play as them in smaller games.

credentials: beaten every tier 1 player except sly 1v1 as scions


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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 12th, 2016, 4:40 pm 
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tl;dr for tier 3

Quote:
it seems the harshest opposition to scion comes from people who have never cmded them regularly.

I and Snake each have commanded more games even just as Scion in the past 2 years than you've commanded every race combined in your entire life. Also, doing 1v1s isn't the same as being a commander in a real strat game.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 12th, 2016, 5:54 pm 
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i agree with mort


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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 12th, 2016, 6:45 pm 
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lol u cant even comprehend what he says greenguy, ur just upset i gave up on training u

also tier 1s only plz

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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 12th, 2016, 7:39 pm 
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u didnt give up u copped out cuz u were afraid i might start beating u just admit it


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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 13th, 2016, 4:52 am 
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Vearie wrote:
tl;dr for tier 3

Quote:
it seems the harshest opposition to scion comes from people who have never cmded them regularly.

I and Snake each have commanded more games even just as Scion in the past 2 years than you've commanded every race combined in your entire life. Also, doing 1v1s isn't the same as being a commander in a real strat game.


ok m8 at the first thing and I agree at the second thing which you would know since you read my post despite pretending you didnt.

Like I said the problem with blink in big strats is the amount of units using it, not the wep itself imo. i think you would agree with me if u played more scion games in 1v1 or 2v2. i think i explained pretty clearly in my earlier post that blink isn't an insta win wep in smaller games.

in bigger games yeah there's an imbalance but changing everything around will kill scion. they can't be made into the same sort of race template that isdf and hadean are while still being scion


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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 13th, 2016, 8:14 am 
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Mortarion wrote:
Forge + Strong gives you blink but if that's all you have you still have a tough time doing anything.


Forge+Strong can get you arc and sonic instead. That way you have the tools required to do dmg and fight back against any offense the isdf player might be throwing your way. We all know scion struggles early game until they get blink but the reason they struggle is because they have weak weps and bad range compared to the isdf. With our proposition you will be better equipped earlier on. This applies for both 1v1s and 4v4/5v5s.

We are not in opposition to anything here. Just changing the tech requirements for weps around.

In your example above, instead of having a plasma/blink/abs scout you could have an arc/flare/abs scout instead. Wouldnt that fix all your troubles that you seem to have early game? You can fight back against tanks and ass tanks, and you still have ur flare avaiable for rats if needed. Scion will be happy cuz they can defend properly and ISDF will be happy since you wont be unkillable.

Mortarion wrote:
this is where most players ragequit if they didn't quit as soon as you got a blink scout or whatever. you have overcome your huge lack of base hitting/pool hitting ability and can now do both really well. problem is by this stage (especially in a 1v1) your isdf opponent has massed assault units rats etc at your 2nd/mid and is likely defending them in a tank. if their base is defended well and you're not accomplishing a whole lot by hitting it then the isdf enemy is no longer distracted and they can steamroll your base which is likely only defended by maybe a spire and a couple guardians.


There is no way the isdf player has massed assault units that early on in the game AND at the same time gotten enuff base D to defend vs a blink warrior. AI is pretty bad unless the player is there to defend them and micro them. ISDF dont have the luxury of being able to be at any give place instantly. If im in base trying to defend, then the AI at ur 2nd base pool (or wherever it is) is free for the picking. And if im mircoing the AI units, ur hitting my base. Theoretically, in a 1v1, ISDF will be able to outgrind the scion player but doing so requires alot of assault units and defense (for both the base, AI, and upg pools).

Mortarion wrote:
until sly or dom state their opinion it's just players who have never cmded scion regularly or at a high level screaming op without knowing what it's like to play as them in smaller games.


Aside from tier 3's and under we've all commanded every race. Just because i dont like scion and i dont command often with them doesnt mean i havent in the past and that i dont know how the race is played. Delaying blink until overseer will be healthier for the game. Bascially your entire rant in your first post is solved by this tech switch.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 15th, 2016, 7:27 pm 
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I was in support of scion balancing early on as they were ridiculous in 1.3 b4. It was fairly easy to turtle until blink, and arc cannon was tantamount to the at-stab degeneracy that we had to live through for a short while. However, I cannot support any current changes to scions. This is primarily due to the fact that less than 10% of games are played using this race. As such, it is difficult for me to make a clear judgement on the matter because so many thugs are inexperienced with scions that it makes objective decisions concerning the race very difficult (did I lose because scions are under-powered at start, or do people just not understand the common-sense of fighting in scion fulls?). With ISDF, there are far greater amounts of games, as well as thugs who understand how to play with them, that it makes it much easier to deduce areas where imbalances are occurring due to such a large sample size.

In short, saying that a tech change will result in this or that is difficult to back up IMO when we don't have any substantial amount of games to sample from. Playing scions once in a blue moon in a game where 80% of the players have a "absorption best shield" understanding of scion play-styles could easily result in skewed perceptions on what does and does not need to be changed further.

When I first came to 1.3, it took around 2-3 months (and many games where thugs gained experience) before people started catching on to my baiting strategies in the first dogfights. It was during the 1v1 tournament, where we had an insane amount of 1v1s every day for quite a while before people began realizing the effectiveness (and began thinking about balance changes) of Cloaket's red field strategies. These are a few examples where increased exposure and experience led to much more informed decisions about the effectiveness of techniques.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: August 16th, 2016, 5:57 am 
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Quote:
Forge+Strong can get you arc and sonic instead. That way you have the tools required to do dmg and fight back against any offense the isdf player might be throwing your way. We all know scion struggles early game until they get blink but the reason they struggle is because they have weak weps and bad range compared to the isdf. With our proposition you will be better equipped earlier on. This applies for both 1v1s and 4v4/5v5s.

We are not in opposition to anything here. Just changing the tech requirements for weps around.

In your example above, instead of having a plasma/blink/abs scout you could have an arc/flare/abs scout instead. Wouldnt that fix all your troubles that you seem to have early game? You can fight back against tanks and ass tanks, and you still have ur flare avaiable for rats if needed. Scion will be happy cuz they can defend properly and ISDF will be happy since you wont be unkillable.


Main problem I see with this idea, besides what Sly said which I will get to, is that this will make scions run pretty much like daedlian. Unlike isdf and hadean, scions best wep is the same class of wep that their starting unit uses.
So instead of building up your tech and building a new unit to equip your end game weps eg blast sabre, fireball xares. You end up rushing to arc and dropping 5 crates for your empties in ~1minute if you have an upg. Further to that you can upg your empties to have arc and pump out 30 scrap arc empties regardless of whether or not you lose your forge/strong/whatever. Isdf, hadean and even daedlian can't do this. There are situations where you can win a dogfight and rush into the enemies base and kill their fact and tech, or their mega xenomator or their daedlian tech hatred making building thing and cripple their tech. If scion can get arc before blink then every game will revolve around rushing to arc empties and flooding the field with them and once they get arc then they can't lose it unless you kill their rec, completely eliminating this side of bz2 strat. The ability to have their best wep on their starting ship early and be able to keep it imo is super OP.

A case can be argued for sonic, which despite dealing no damage in assault mode is still useful because it's combat version does pretty decent damage vs heavy armour. I would be willing to test this with rush/snake/sly, having sonic available early and keeping arc as more of a late game wep but I can't say hey lets change around scions whole tech and change the way that 100% of scion games are played just by talking about it, along the lines of what sly said.
Unless someone can convince me otherwise I'm really opposed to making arc available to scion before blink. I've made similar posts about daedlian empties having their late game wep, I'll try dig it up in case I'm not making sense to anyone.

It actually is a pretty good idea rush/snake but I don't think you guys considered the above.

Quote:
There is no way the isdf player has massed assault units that early on in the game AND at the same time gotten enuff base D to defend vs a blink warrior. AI is pretty bad unless the player is there to defend them and micro them. ISDF dont have the luxury of being able to be at any give place instantly. If im in base trying to defend, then the AI at ur 2nd base pool (or wherever it is) is free for the picking. And if im mircoing the AI units, ur hitting my base. Theoretically, in a 1v1, ISDF will be able to outgrind the scion player but doing so requires alot of assault units and defense (for both the base, AI, and upg pools).


Yeah nah I don't mean the isdf base will be completely safe, even a few rats and a gt etc can minimize the amount of damage you take because the warrior is getting smacked by all your defence while hitting stuff. It gets to a stage where the warrior will have to blink out quicker and quicker, because A it's health is too low and B it's ammo is getting low.
blinking into a base and taking out a building uses a lot of ammo with fang, when you blink out you are usually on very low ammo once you get to mid/2nd depending on the map side. if all the isdf's AI is at the 2nd or near mid they get a chance to clean up a damaged warrior with no ammo to blink. In bigger games though, yeah a few rats isn't going to do shit vs 3-5 warriors.
You are right though, the warrior can be where it wants and the isdf unit can't but the warrior has to do most things on its own where as isdf can use AI and like you say, grind out the win.

Quote:
Aside from tier 3's and under we've all commanded every race. Just because i dont like scion and i dont command often with them doesnt mean i havent in the past and that i dont know how the race is played. Delaying blink until overseer will be healthier for the game. Bascially your entire rant in your first post is solved by this tech switch.


Yeah I know you cmd a lot and all the races, I still think you and rush need to play some games with me as scion/vs scion just so we can be on the same page with some things. It's a lie to say we aren't still learning things about this game, especially a race like scion which isn't played as often as isdf.
I'm willing to test out changes you guys suggest to see how they work, I do have pre conceived ideas on what will and will not work but I'm open minded.

ZA's idea of buffing scion middle game and weakening scion late game was a decent enough idea but the way it was implemented was really inadequate. Before this current vsr I made a lot of changes to revert his version of blink (2.5 second delay but uses hardly any ammo, who thought this was a good idea?) to a blink that's more true to 1.2 without being so over the top

Za's blink
Base cost: 100
Distance cost: 0.8
Delay: 2.5 sec

My blink:
base cost: 125
Distance cost: 0.9
Delay: 2.0 sec

So for 25% more base ammo cost and 10% more distance cost you lost half a second on the delay, actually a pretty big hit for half a second which I don't think anyone notices. The numbers themselves don't matter all that much, the main point I'm trying to make is that I put a bit of work into trying to correct scion after Za got VLAD'ed and that I'm ofc open to suggestions on how to make them not only more fair but also more true to what I believe they're designed to be.

Always willing to test with you lads, I do have a fair bit of experience playing with them, it's fair to say I play them more than rush and yourself, especially in 1v1s and from that + my vsr balancing shit i do have a bit of insight on things u may not have considered.

Quote:
When I first came to 1.3, it took around 2-3 months (and many games where thugs gained experience) before people started catching on to my baiting strategies in the first dogfights. It was during the 1v1 tournament, where we had an insane amount of 1v1s every day for quite a while before people began realizing the effectiveness (and began thinking about balance changes) of Cloaket's red field strategies. These are a few examples where increased exposure and experience led to much more informed decisions about the effectiveness of techniques.


Pretty much this. We don't currently play as often and to the same level as we did during the lead up to the tourney. I was doing probably 10-15 1v1s a day, and just in that period of a month or whatever I got a lot better and got a much bigger understanding of the game. Even back then people's idea of how to combat scion was vastly different than it is now.
At the start of the 1v1s I did with snake as scion, snakes original strat was to go hard from the start of the game, I lost shitloads of games until I figured out how to defend from early rat rushes, camping etc and once I did figure it out I started winning a lot more until he changed again.
Next was rushing to arm and ignoring me and focusing on my base, to survive I had to counter hover and get really good at defending my base as he would hover my shit over and over. This evolved into a chain/shad/mcurt scout which I learnt how to deal with and eventually snake would get a shitload of hornet rocket tanks and go straight for rec.
Again i figured out ways to deal with this and this lead to quick laser and/or pulse laser sabre turrets which have been dominant ever since and imo the best way to combat scion. Once this was popularized I moved away from rushing to gauss warriors and began rushing to plasma/blink/abso scouts which legit no-one but dom ever built and these work pretty well if you have the scrap behind you to get them out.

In one months time the standard way to beat scion changed many times over, players other than snake who tried to use the old methods vs me got beat until they adapted and somewhere between then and now we've sort of forgotten again. Recently I beat tom 1v1 as scion, not trying to use this as a dig at him but the reason I won was that tom's premier strategy, which had worked for a long time, was to throw everything he could at me at the start. Having been in this situation 10 times a day before the tourney I successfully defended and he said gg remake. Tom is a really dominant and aggressive player so surviving that vs him shows that the old rat rush and camping 2nd strat just doesn't work vs players who know how to handle it.
In that same week however dd managed to beat me 1v1 because he has a greater understanding of what scion needs to win and he played out the entire game, eventually overrunning me with assault units. What made the difference was not individual skill but the understanding of how to play scion which gave him the knowledge of how to beat them

tldr: we need to play them more, not just in stacked as shit 5v5s but 1v1s and 2v2s. I'm always open to testing your new tech changes but at this stage I can't say yes lets change x and y. we need to understand the current game before changing it imo


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 Post subject: Re: Scion Balance
PostPosted: September 14th, 2016, 10:18 am 
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Tier 1 discussion only lol

As for Scion Balancing how can you balance something that is imbalanced by design?

If you compare all three races in reference to early/med/late game you will notice that scion always fall short.

Usable units for all three stages of game progression

ISDF:

Early: Mtr bikes, scouts, tanks, rats, msl scouts

Med: Mtr bikes, scouts, tanks, rats , msl scouts, assault tanks, rkt tanks

late: mtr bikes, rats, tanks, assault tanks, rkt tanks, walkers, bombers, msl scouts

Hadeon:

Early: scouts, locust, hedoux, tanks

Med: scouts, locust, tanks, hedoux, atlas, zeus, bomber ships

late: Locust, tanks , hedoux, atlas, zeus, bomber ships

Scion:

early: Scouts, sentry or lancer, rats

med: scout, warrior, lancer, rats, maulers

late: warrior, titans, archers, maulers, guass rats


Based on this chart you can clearly see that Scion are the only race that can't effectively break an opposition without close range brute force UNTIL Archers can be acquired as they have no versatile units capable of destroying heavy buildings from distance.

Hadeon and ISDF both have units capable of holding down positions, being strong enough to defend themselves and being able to crate drop them to make them more effective as the game progresses.

The only effective unit Scion has is a Titan which is the very last unit on the tech tree in terms of position control on the go.

To make up for this lack of versatility they are given the ability to teleport which is a gift and a curse in itself.

In short: Scion without blink are crap and scion with blink are OP. Changing blink will only make or break Scion. If you truly want them to be balanced you will have to do the following:

Give them more versatility for long range engagements/game progression or give them more HP and allow them to fill their point blank role.

If you allow someone to get quill/guass warriors with blink in 10mins then chances are that game was tipped in their favor to begin with but based on a progression chart scion tend to lose IF both teams are advancing properly as they are the most effected by scrap control

@Mort

1v1 are hard to set as examples for scion balancing simply because team work is scion biggest issue.

It takes a full team of arc warriors to stop the assault of 1 or 2 enemy thugs attacking with assault units allowing the other 2 guys to hitpools or do whatever. Scion are extremely dependent on team support especially since their units lack any form of effective long range.

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