Forge+Strong can get you arc and sonic instead. That way you have the tools required to do dmg and fight back against any offense the isdf player might be throwing your way. We all know scion struggles early game until they get blink but the reason they struggle is because they have weak weps and bad range compared to the isdf. With our proposition you will be better equipped earlier on. This applies for both 1v1s and 4v4/5v5s.
We are not in opposition to anything here. Just changing the tech requirements for weps around.
In your example above, instead of having a plasma/blink/abs scout you could have an arc/flare/abs scout instead. Wouldnt that fix all your troubles that you seem to have early game? You can fight back against tanks and ass tanks, and you still have ur flare avaiable for rats if needed. Scion will be happy cuz they can defend properly and ISDF will be happy since you wont be unkillable.
Main problem I see with this idea, besides what Sly said which I will get to, is that this will make scions run pretty much like daedlian. Unlike isdf and hadean, scions best wep is the same class of wep that their starting unit uses.
So instead of building up your tech and building a new unit to equip your end game weps eg blast sabre, fireball xares. You end up rushing to arc and dropping 5 crates for your empties in ~1minute if you have an upg. Further to that you can upg your empties to have arc and pump out 30 scrap arc empties regardless of whether or not you lose your forge/strong/whatever. Isdf, hadean and even daedlian can't do this. There are situations where you can win a dogfight and rush into the enemies base and kill their fact and tech, or their mega xenomator or their daedlian tech hatred making building thing and cripple their tech. If scion can get arc before blink then every game will revolve around rushing to arc empties and flooding the field with them and once they get arc then they can't lose it unless you kill their rec, completely eliminating this side of bz2 strat. The ability to have their best wep on their starting ship early and be able to keep it imo is super OP.
A case can be argued for sonic, which despite dealing no damage in assault mode is still useful because it's combat version does pretty decent damage vs heavy armour. I would be willing to test this with rush/snake/sly, having sonic available early and keeping arc as more of a late game wep but I can't say hey lets change around scions whole tech and change the way that 100% of scion games are played just by talking about it, along the lines of what sly said.
Unless someone can convince me otherwise I'm really opposed to making arc available to scion before blink. I've made similar posts about daedlian empties having their late game wep, I'll try dig it up in case I'm not making sense to anyone.
It actually is a pretty good idea rush/snake but I don't think you guys considered the above.
There is no way the isdf player has massed assault units that early on in the game AND at the same time gotten enuff base D to defend vs a blink warrior. AI is pretty bad unless the player is there to defend them and micro them. ISDF dont have the luxury of being able to be at any give place instantly. If im in base trying to defend, then the AI at ur 2nd base pool (or wherever it is) is free for the picking. And if im mircoing the AI units, ur hitting my base. Theoretically, in a 1v1, ISDF will be able to outgrind the scion player but doing so requires alot of assault units and defense (for both the base, AI, and upg pools).
Yeah nah I don't mean the isdf base will be completely safe, even a few rats and a gt etc can minimize the amount of damage you take because the warrior is getting smacked by all your defence while hitting stuff. It gets to a stage where the warrior will have to blink out quicker and quicker, because A it's health is too low and B it's ammo is getting low.
blinking into a base and taking out a building uses a lot of ammo with fang, when you blink out you are usually on very low ammo once you get to mid/2nd depending on the map side. if all the isdf's AI is at the 2nd or near mid they get a chance to clean up a damaged warrior with no ammo to blink. In bigger games though, yeah a few rats isn't going to do shit vs 3-5 warriors.
You are right though, the warrior can be where it wants and the isdf unit can't but the warrior has to do most things on its own where as isdf can use AI and like you say, grind out the win.
Aside from tier 3's and under we've all commanded every race. Just because i dont like scion and i dont command often with them doesnt mean i havent in the past and that i dont know how the race is played. Delaying blink until overseer will be healthier for the game. Bascially your entire rant in your first post is solved by this tech switch.
Yeah I know you cmd a lot and all the races, I still think you and rush need to play some games with me as scion/vs scion just so we can be on the same page with some things. It's a lie to say we aren't still learning things about this game, especially a race like scion which isn't played as often as isdf.
I'm willing to test out changes you guys suggest to see how they work, I do have pre conceived ideas on what will and will not work but I'm open minded.
ZA's idea of buffing scion middle game and weakening scion late game was a decent enough idea but the way it was implemented was really inadequate. Before this current vsr I made a lot of changes to revert his version of blink (2.5 second delay but uses hardly any ammo, who thought this was a good idea?) to a blink that's more true to 1.2 without being so over the top
Base cost: 100
Distance cost: 0.8
Delay: 2.5 sec
base cost: 125
Distance cost: 0.9
Delay: 2.0 sec
So for 25% more base ammo cost and 10% more distance cost you lost half a second on the delay, actually a pretty big hit for half a second which I don't think anyone notices. The numbers themselves don't matter all that much, the main point I'm trying to make is that I put a bit of work into trying to correct scion after Za got VLAD'ed and that I'm ofc open to suggestions on how to make them not only more fair but also more true to what I believe they're designed to be.
Always willing to test with you lads, I do have a fair bit of experience playing with them, it's fair to say I play them more than rush and yourself, especially in 1v1s and from that + my vsr balancing shit i do have a bit of insight on things u may not have considered.
When I first came to 1.3, it took around 2-3 months (and many games where thugs gained experience) before people started catching on to my baiting strategies in the first dogfights. It was during the 1v1 tournament, where we had an insane amount of 1v1s every day for quite a while before people began realizing the effectiveness (and began thinking about balance changes) of Cloaket's red field strategies. These are a few examples where increased exposure and experience led to much more informed decisions about the effectiveness of techniques.
Pretty much this. We don't currently play as often and to the same level as we did during the lead up to the tourney. I was doing probably 10-15 1v1s a day, and just in that period of a month or whatever I got a lot better and got a much bigger understanding of the game. Even back then people's idea of how to combat scion was vastly different than it is now.
At the start of the 1v1s I did with snake as scion, snakes original strat was to go hard from the start of the game, I lost shitloads of games until I figured out how to defend from early rat rushes, camping etc and once I did figure it out I started winning a lot more until he changed again.
Next was rushing to arm and ignoring me and focusing on my base, to survive I had to counter hover and get really good at defending my base as he would hover my shit over and over. This evolved into a chain/shad/mcurt scout which I learnt how to deal with and eventually snake would get a shitload of hornet rocket tanks and go straight for rec.
Again i figured out ways to deal with this and this lead to quick laser and/or pulse laser sabre turrets which have been dominant ever since and imo the best way to combat scion. Once this was popularized I moved away from rushing to gauss warriors and began rushing to plasma/blink/abso scouts which legit no-one but dom ever built and these work pretty well if you have the scrap behind you to get them out.
In one months time the standard way to beat scion changed many times over, players other than snake who tried to use the old methods vs me got beat until they adapted and somewhere between then and now we've sort of forgotten again. Recently I beat tom 1v1 as scion, not trying to use this as a dig at him but the reason I won was that tom's premier strategy, which had worked for a long time, was to throw everything he could at me at the start. Having been in this situation 10 times a day before the tourney I successfully defended and he said gg remake. Tom is a really dominant and aggressive player so surviving that vs him shows that the old rat rush and camping 2nd strat just doesn't work vs players who know how to handle it.
In that same week however dd managed to beat me 1v1 because he has a greater understanding of what scion needs to win and he played out the entire game, eventually overrunning me with assault units. What made the difference was not individual skill but the understanding of how to play scion which gave him the knowledge of how to beat them
tldr: we need to play them more, not just in stacked as shit 5v5s but 1v1s and 2v2s. I'm always open to testing your new tech changes but at this stage I can't say yes lets change x and y. we need to understand the current game before changing it imo